In this episode, recorded during a media briefing, Richard Pater speaks with Shiri Fein-Grossman about the evolution of the Abraham Accords on their five-year anniversary. Shiri reflects on the foundations of Israel’s normalisation with the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco. She outlines the mechanics that made the accords resilient through conflict and discusses the prospects for future expansion to Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa.
Shiri Fein-Grossman is the CEO of the Israel-Africa Relations Institute and a board member of the Forum Dvorah. She previously served in a number of positions at Israel’s National Security Council culminating as the Head of the Foreign Policy Branch for Regional Affairs, where she played a central role in advancing Israel’s relations with the Abraham Accords countries.
Transcript
(This transcript has been automatically generated by AI — please excuse any potential errors.)
00:00:06:24 – 00:00:26:16
Welcome, everybody, to the latest, BICOM briefing. I’m Richard Pater to the Chief Executive of BICOM here in Jerusalem. And I’m delighted to, to welcome the guest to this briefing is, is Shiri Fein-Grossman, who is the currently the CEO of Israel – Africa Relations Institute and a board member of the brilliant, Forum Dvorah.
00:00:26:16 – 00:00:48:04
In the past, she has served as the Head of Regional Affairs at Israel’s National Security Council and played a key role in establishing the government’s government relations with the Abraham Accords countries. Of course, we are hosting this briefing on the around the five year anniversary and amid much talk amongst the, the Trump plans of expanding those accords.
00:00:48:08 – 00:01:10:03
So let me hand over to you here to give a to give an outline of, of both, historic perspective and where you see the current state of relations. Thank you very much. Thank you. So I’ll just start with a brief disclaimer. It’s everything I express here are my own, opinions, of course. And I don’t represent any, government opinions or advice or any of the institute’s.
00:01:10:03 – 00:01:25:02
usually do this conversation about the Abraham Accords and my perspective, both reflecting on on what happened, in 2020 and then what happened since, I’ve come up with
00:01:25:02 – 00:01:35:24
a perspective and kind of a model of of how I think, why things happened the way they, they did and, and tried to predict what’s what’s next.
00:01:35:24 – 00:01:49:22
the picture you’re seeing right now in the background is, December 2020, in Rabat. Right, in front of the of the, of the palace of the of His Majesty,
00:01:49:22 – 00:01:53:01
King Muhammad the sixth. We can see,
00:01:53:01 – 00:02:02:03
and I said, the foreign minister, speaking to the press and, alongside him, Jared Kushner and Meir Ben-Shabbat, and here we are.
00:02:02:03 – 00:02:49:16
I’m standing with the entire Israeli team with, it was actually covered live, at 8 p.m., to national television in Morocco. So I’m gonna let us take just, brief introduction, of who I am. I’ve served, around 11 years in the National Security Council and in, different roles. I was, a legal advisor, wrote cabinet decisions, saw the process, represented the National security, council at the Knesset and, and, at Court of Justice and other proceedings, just to represent the National Security Council’s, point of view and, and perspective from anything that has to do with legal point of view.
00:02:49:18 – 00:03:10:12
My last, role was head of regional affairs, where I really, was honoured to, kind of lead the interagency, process along with colleagues, at the Prime minister’s office in Israel and, and, the minister of Foreign Affairs, obviously. And there was a lot of, interagency staff working,
00:03:10:12 – 00:03:15:03
and the, the Abraham Accords, just more than just nice ceremonies.
00:03:15:03 – 00:03:47:06
There was a lot of, mechanics, going on behind the scenes, between governments, you know, with Abu Dhabi and, and Bahrain and, and Washington and others, to, to to create from nothing relations between the country to the. So there’s a lot of real pressure that goes into that. I retired the I left the NSC in 2021, May 2021, right after the remote.
00:03:47:08 – 00:04:22:06
The last, operation that was, heavily in Gaza, which, was very, very intense. And I went to the private sector to work as a director of government partnerships at the, global investment, platform. Our crowd, ever since I’ve been interviewing a lot, both in English and and in Hebrew, giving, you know, my perspective on, on regional affairs, and, in the last couple of years, since January 24th, I’ve, led the Israel Africa Relations Institute.
00:04:22:08 – 00:04:48:19
We’re a platform that’s aimed to promote, Israel, standing in Africa and as and Africa and Israel, just to be the go to platform for everything Africa, and Israel and, this is a special week. We have a lot of events coming up. And, and I urge you, we’re mainly focused on, on sub-Sahara and plus kind of Morocco.
00:04:48:19 – 00:05:12:21
Obviously, a lot of North Africa is we don’t have relations and Egypt is a special case. But we’ll get to that maybe later. So first of all, how do you define, the Abraham Accords? So, I found a great the, the, Jared Kushner and others. Robert Greenway, after leaving office, they founded the Abraham Accords.
00:05:12:21 – 00:05:42:22
Peace Institute, and they have, annual reports. And I found a quite, their definition of what the Abraham Accords are. So they’re refer collectively to the agreements of peace, diplomatic relations and full normalization between Israel and partner countries, including the United, Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Morocco, Sudan and Kosovo. All were built on the foundation of Israel’s peace with Egypt and Jordan, and all were brokered by the United States.
00:05:42:22 – 00:06:09:06
And I think this is an important thing to remember. A lot of the legitimacy, for normalizing relations with Israel actually stands on the on the peace treaties with, Egypt and Jordan. Sometimes we tend to forget, about about them and how actually stable and successful they are. But even though they’re, successful, they’re kind of this, in the Israeli system and society, we call it a cold peace, not a warm peace.
00:06:09:08 – 00:06:33:15
And when we set to design, the Abraham Accords, one of the things that we we said, we want a warm peace and not a cold peace. We want, kind of this, relations between countries that doesn’t derive only, I would say top bottom, but also bottom up. And how do you how do you do that?
00:06:33:15 – 00:07:15:14
And we went to and this is how we built this. This is the mechanics I’m speaking of. It’s an extensive, we have dozens, dozens of governments of government agreements, signed with all the countries. There’s an extensive list. I counted over 40, different agreements. There was a lot of your bureaucracy that went to it, and that really built an infrastructure, to have a flat kind of, structure of the agreements instead of a very narrow one where if the leaders, don’t like each other or there’s a problem politically, this whole thing doesn’t work.
00:07:15:18 – 00:07:46:23
Well, if you build a flat structure, you make it much more stable. And there was. This is kind of where we designed it. How do we get to the point that the next conflict very intense conflict with Gaza and with the Palestinians that we knew we knew would come Sunday? How do we make sure or how do we, diminish risk risks so it will survive, an intense fighting and we and that’s people to people contacts.
00:07:46:23 – 00:08:13:09
It’s business to big business contacts. And they all need, infrastructure, supplied by the government. If it’s direct flights, if it’s trade agreements, if it’s, tax treaty, prevention agreement, double taxation treaties of sorry and mutual, investment agreements. There’s so much that went into this and not just ceremonies in Washington.
00:08:13:11 – 00:08:38:05
Now, a little anecdote that, I mean, it’s public knowledge already when they first, announced, the Accords with the UAE back in August 2020, I was 13, kind of when, Trump, first took the phone call with, Muhammad bin Zayed, of the UAE, then, the crown prince of, the Abu Dhabi emirate.
00:08:38:07 – 00:09:18:21
Wait, is it Abraham Accords or accords getting, started and, you know, and Jared and others started accords. Accords with an S because you know, by them it was only the UAE, but they were kind of they already saw how others, would follow. But the UAE was definitely the one to take the big plunge. Of course, with, you know, most likely it’s not being spoken of, but, you know, with, also kind of, let’s say not, not an objection from Saudi Arabia that really, also allowed for Bahrain and others to, to join the agreements.
00:09:18:21 – 00:09:46:24
Now, why they call it the Abraham Accords and not sure, you know, the story, but this is, General Miguel Correa. He’s actually, Puerto Rican, general, who was the, in the white House at the time was key actor in the Abraham Accords behind the scenes as well, working closely, with Jared Kushner and David Friedman, the Israeli ambassador here.
00:09:47:01 – 00:10:15:11
And of course, the president and then Robert Grenier and others. So, Greg, actually, you know, came to to, to Avi Berkeley, which was back then kind of the, the chief negotiator, alongside Kushner. He said, how about we call it the Abraham Accords because you have all the Abrahamic, you know, faiths.
00:10:15:13 – 00:10:36:04
And I think it’s very symbolic. But his name is Avi, which means Abraham. Abraham. And he said, well, that’s a great idea, but you should tell Jared. Jared. So he doesn’t think, I just want it to be named after me. So that’s kind of a small anecdote. For me, like 2020, what do you think?
00:10:36:06 – 00:11:24:14
Or reflect, on what happened. We actually had this perfect storm. That was that came together that allowed, the Abraham Accords. I want to take us all back and into 2020. Now it seems like light years away. Exactly five years, and a little bit more. So, first of all, the big, big, point where you can say everything started with actually in January 2020 when President Trump, presented the Peace to Prosperity plan that was, really, written by Jared Kushner after, quite an extensive, staff work that he did with, many, many people.
00:11:24:14 – 00:11:52:04
And after visiting and speaking to, everybody in the region, they came up with the plan, the Palestinian, utterly rejected it. They presented it, almost, you know, terrorist you, you know, the unity, Larry, in, in, in the white House, with Trump and Netanyahu, on stage and also the ambassadors of Bahrain, UAE, and I think, Oman, if I remember correctly.
00:11:52:06 – 00:12:08:08
And, as I said, Palestinians rejected it. And even in in the end of the day, the Peace to Prosperity plan is, is based on a two state solution. It’s maybe not, you know, territorially wise, it’s not what the Palestinian would ever sign on,
00:12:08:08 – 00:12:16:15
for some in Israel, the actually a lot of the settlers and I would say, you know, very far.
00:12:16:15 – 00:12:49:09
Right, we rejected the plan, said we don’t want a Palestinian state. It’s totally unacceptable. And they were disappointed. But it did get Netanyahu to sign off on some sort of map that has to two states, which is kind of, it’s a big achievement, for Jared Kushner. And that kind of was the starting point of everything because they wanted, the, you know, the Palestinians and Israelis to come up with a peace plan.
00:12:49:09 – 00:13:17:18
And then the idea was to follow it up with, this normalization. So first, have peace between the Israelis and Palestinians and then, and then, increase it to other countries that, you know, came into this, stalling place that was, was very much stuck. And they, and then other circumstances, I want to talk about kind of let us, to the Abraham Accords.
00:13:17:18 – 00:14:02:16
So what were, other circumstances? So, the, the biggest thing was Israelis, desire after elections to annex the West Bank. The kind of triggered, great concern, from a lot of, regional partners. Genuine concern. But also, kind of this leverage, that they can show in, in, in and kind of, canceling this, this move by the Israeli government to go to the public and say, hey, I, I let’s, let’s, if I gave you normalization, will you back down the annexation of the West Bank?
00:14:02:21 – 00:14:24:10
So we have that we have, also this trend that, when I was into regional, when I was in the national Security Council, something that we were extremely worried about. And we have also, you know, other parts in the region that were, had the same concern of the US kind of want wanting again to walk away from the Middle East, leave Syria.
00:14:24:10 – 00:14:49:00
You know, the president then even said, we’re leaving Syria. And concentrate more on, on the rivalry, with, with China. We had Covid 19, back then, which made, you know, everything shut down. And some countries looking for kind of this pathway to, to keep trade, to keep, traffic. Dubai was open, Abu Dhabi was closed.
00:14:49:02 – 00:15:13:19
So after the Abraham Accords, we saw a lot of flights back, back and forth, from Dubai. There’s Israeli innovation that, you know, the book, Israeli, the startup Nation, by soul singer and so, you know, it was kind of this very, very popular book, across the Middle East, with people, really, wondering what am I missing?
00:15:13:19 – 00:15:38:08
How did they do that? How Israel became such a high tech powerhouse. And how can we, tap into that? We had the US election, which was a big, big issue when it comes to the timing because, the US was really interested in getting to the election with some sort of, foreign affairs, foreign relations achievements.
00:15:38:10 – 00:16:28:00
And, and we have, two very prominent and very important leaders. We’re like the next generation of Middle East, leaders, to lead their country into a different to a future where it’s, diversified, has a diversified economy, but also diversified relations. And just personally, these two leaders, Mohammad bin Salman, of of, the crown prince of, the kingdom, Saudi Arabia and Mohammad bin Zayed today, the president of the of the UAE, just personally our leaders, a very visionary leaders that, you know, have a lot of, as a motivation to really put the Middle East on the map to lead it.
00:16:28:02 – 00:16:54:22
And, and, and just to, to do things a lot differently than was done in the past. And they’re kind of, the way that they see Israel has also been a lot more positive than leaders in the past. So, I’m gonna frame this, into three kind of, general, you know, themes that I see.
00:16:54:24 – 00:17:27:16
Why the 2020 was, you know, the good timing that we saw for the Abraham Accords? There’s three elements here. From my perspective. One is the thing of timing getting, the right people to converse with each other and, of course, interests and motivations that I addressed. A lot of them. Before now, the the big issue, that, we were told back then in the National Security Council was, the thing you see in the back is the momentum.
00:17:27:16 – 00:18:13:14
Like, the momentum is key. I saw Jared Kushner, speak about this in his interviews as well. Netanyahu’s kind of, was very driven by the need to keep momentum to, to create these small wins and just keep going, keep going to the becomes bigger and bigger. And we were pushed as, as the, as his staff basically, to keep going with the successes with the agreements and that really I think, it overall, what got us to the point of the Abraham being, being able to, to break through and then and then like the speed craziness that came after, which was when I spoke about the dozens of, of agreements.
00:18:13:14 – 00:18:40:08
So this is, was it’s it wasn’t, a coincidence. We were really kind of very much, driven, and push to keep up the momentum. All right. So, a little bit about the interest. So the preventing of annexation under the Trump space plans. I spoke, a bit earlier. Iran, of course, that time, was a big issue.
00:18:40:10 – 00:19:04:22
Everybody wanted to fight Iran, everybody not fighting rank, but, kind of counter, their plan for nuclear weapons. It was of great, great, great concern, by, by Saudi Arabia. On on the one hand, nuclear weapons, on the other hand, regional expansion. We saw, militias, you know, we saw the contacts with the Houthis in Yemen.
00:19:04:22 – 00:19:31:20
We had the Yemen war going on. Then we have Hezbollah and Syria helping, the Assad regime. And we just saw how Syria is becoming more and more, you know, on the side of, of Iran and very close to Iran. We’re seeing a lot of Iranians, a lot of presence. And it’s, it’s something that very big that we spoke to at the time, which was also a great concern to our to the neighbours, around us.
00:19:31:22 – 00:19:59:02
So, like I said, the US election wanting to kind of, control the kind of media sentiment that it comes up with achievements and keeping that momentum going, American desire to reduce, forces. As I mentioned, on Morocco, on the Moroccan side with the largest, biggest interests, was U.S recognition of, Western Sahara.
00:19:59:04 – 00:20:45:01
Just to remind you, Morocco, we Israel had relations with Morocco before, since the 1970s, if I’m correct. Or the 1990s. Sorry if I don’t remember it now. But it was cut off, during the First Intifada and in 2000, 2001 and then to renew it, it was really this trilateral deal where, U.S., recognizes the Western Sahara and, and, and Morocco returns their liaison office to, to Tel Aviv and, direct flights and everything, trade everything was was renewed and we see it today.
00:20:45:03 – 00:21:08:23
Again, I talk a little bit about the personality of the leaders, both. I think if you talk about the main leaders here are both, Trump and the UAE leader, really wanted to leave behind their personal legacy, which was a great motivation of advancing this. Of course, I’m not, denying there’s also an angle of advanced defence system, mainly from the US.
00:21:09:00 – 00:21:42:13
Saudi Arabia has been seeking, defence pact with, with, with the US, but also Israeli technology as well, Israeli defence capabilities, intelligence, cooperation, etc.. And again, there was a lot of, those either wanting to diversify their economy, their strategic alliances, and of course, I think, you know, there is this intra gulf Arab competition of, you know, you know, who goes there first or better.
00:21:42:13 – 00:22:09:00
And then that, that becomes also joins the momentum, joins this, motivation to be, to go along with, the, with everything else and everything that’s going on. So just to show you, I’m not, there is, a series of documentaries about how the, how the Americans really wanted to downplay their presence in, in the, in the Middle East.
00:22:09:02 – 00:22:37:20
And this with, a theme that went on, where they really wanted, I’m, you know, I, I don’t know if you remember, there were conversation about an Arab NATO, coming together to fight Iran and then kind of the, the US kind of, phasing out of the Middle East. Now, another important, element that I talked, they said there’s interest, which is is very in motivations, which are, are very important.
00:22:37:20 – 00:23:01:06
But there’s also two others I said people and timing. So the people I think the and this is the first time we had this, we had a team at the white House, which were, other business people, right. Like Jacob Kushner and Trump and, and others on the team. David Friedman, who was ambassador but also operational people like Michael, Mike Pompeo.
00:23:01:08 – 00:23:34:06
Right. Which came from the intelligence, arena. And these people are kind of very hands on operative want to get things done very, very result driven and not regular, diplomatic, you know, people that we would see on the Israeli side, kind of and this came to go also similar because, well, Dermer and Netanyahu were are also transactional, but we have maybe Shabbat and Ronen Levy, who was my direct boss.
00:23:34:08 – 00:23:58:17
He was known as my boss, who were very, operational people. You know, they also came from the intelligence service. They, they really very resolved driving, you know, KPI oriented, people and that really that culture, I think was crucial to get headway. And, and we saw the same culture, with our, our Arab, neighbours as well, everywhere.
00:23:58:18 – 00:24:38:24
We was kind of this, suddenly like this, this alignment, both culturally in a transactional kind of way of, of doing negotiations, but also, in, in many of them are also, observant Jews or observant Muslims and, and like this, this, commonality they had that they can bond together in their, you know, in, in faith and things they believed in, spiritually, religiously was also, I think, part of that adding to the chemistry, to the respect, the people had, to one another.
00:24:39:01 – 00:25:09:13
So timing, so Miles Davis is a famous quote. Timing isn’t the main thing. It’s the only thing. So to remind you, summer of 2020, we had a few closures due to the Covid 19. And so that was kind of, a very, very, a coming together, moment. We had both elections in Israel and both elections in, in the, in the US.
00:25:09:18 – 00:25:46:05
So you have the, you have the right people. Do you have the right interest? And I think due to Covid, which sometimes kind of delay things, but sometimes speed things, and that was really crucial. Now the timing issue, actually in Israel, was even problematic because, and this is also public knowledge that around March 19th, the Emirati is already wanting to promote, normalization in exchange of canceling annexation.
00:25:46:08 – 00:26:21:09
But, there’s like ongoing never ending cycles of election in Israel. That’s the kind of delayed the timing and like, a year or year and a half. But the timing issue is also important. So I just I have a few examples. I don’t want to take too much time and a few examples of really after Netanyahu left office and, in 2020, a lot of, of diplomacy going on, Prime Minister Bennett, Sharon is starting to shift with like, a leader summit, boosting relations.
00:26:21:09 – 00:26:53:03
We had the phone, the Negev Forum with, all these leaders coming to Israel holding hands this is, you know, all the foreign ministers of, this is Lane, Egypt, Israel and United States, Morocco and, and the UAE. So very good timing. There’s, a lot of agreements, security cooperation, also economically, trade deals and you name it, a lot of acquisitions.
00:26:53:03 – 00:27:23:22
And Israelis, for the first time go on the Dubai Expo, we saw an increase, a big increase in the, in the economical, trade. By the way, not just with the UAE. And Bahrain in Morocco, but it went up also with our partners, Egypt and Jordan, which I think is super important and and why the Abraham Accords are more of this amazing thing of regional connectivity and not just these ceremonies you see on, on the white House lawn.
00:27:24:03 – 00:27:49:03
We really were just a part of other, of the region. This is, from the Manama dialog where, this picture a seems like, a dream, a few years before where the national security advisor then who later goes with, Brett McGurk and the and the Greece, foreign Affairs, it’s just it’s just, it’s it was, incredible.
00:27:49:05 – 00:28:18:03
Of course there were security corporations, and I know we’re short for time. So just to, to go and visit this model. But I want to say with Saudi Arabia and everything, that is good, I want to say, first of all, before I get to the two things, we saw that even with the war, of course, there were, repercussions and implications of the very, very harsh conflict.
00:28:18:05 – 00:28:45:22
After October 7th. But overall we didn’t see any, you know, breaking of down of their relations, a little bit of downgrade in some cases, ambassadors that didn’t, didn’t, they left Israel for, for a while and like this cooling down of, of things. But, you know, if you talk about trade economically and others, you’re even seeing a slight, increase.
00:28:45:24 – 00:29:08:04
I think it’s amazing. I mean, the UAE, flights, kept going almost all the time, almost like a lull, which was, incredible. And so I’m not saying there wasn’t damage to relations. There was. But I think and looking back, the structure we put into place from the bureaucracy of side really held on.
00:29:08:04 – 00:29:42:06
And we saw, the Abraham Accords still, being, kept. But when I look at Saudi Arabia now, I think after the ceasefire, it’s definitely something that now we see come together. We have basically everything I told about the Abraham Accords 2020 because of the people and the motivations and the, and the timing after we have now the, the, the, the, Trump peace plan, I think it is very plausible that we see it.
00:29:42:11 – 00:30:02:06
But the trouble, the real challenge is the momentum, because every time we’ll see kind of this ceasefire breaking down and everything is very fragile. It it hurts the momentum. You see, you know, the actors saying, okay, maybe this is not a good timing. This is not the right time. And we should wait a little more and see how things come together.
00:30:02:11 – 00:30:29:20
So I think, some of the players, especially Saudi Arabia, kind of wait and see and, and I’m if I have to presume, you know, I’m presuming and it’s very like the Americans are really, really pushing to keep the momentum going. To get the first Abraham Accords widening, very quick and then everyone to follow, and to do that before, before, a possible breakdown of, of the ceasefire.
00:30:29:22 – 00:30:48:08
So I’m going to stop here, and take some questions, I hope. Wasn’t too long or quick or but happy to answer any questions. Yeah, that was great. Thank you very much indeed. If anyone wants to ask a question, I suggest either putting up a a real or virtual hand, and then we’ll come to you. Or there’s another option.
00:30:48:11 – 00:31:10:00
You can write the question in the, in the chat as well. Just while I’m waiting for people to ask if I could ask, maybe 1 or 2 questions to start with. First of all, if you kind of bring it up to the current day, we’ve noticed that the, the none of the Abraham Accords countries were actually signatories as part of the, the Trump plan that was, that was ceremoniously signed, signed last week.
00:31:10:00 – 00:31:37:14
And, obviously Israelis are all appreciative of that. But what role do you see? I would say specifically of the the UAE, but the others, in kind of playing a role in the Trump plan going forward, it’s right that they weren’t signatories, but they did, you know, congratulate, all the Muslim countries and, and that were very much, I think, behind the scenes in putting, together at least 80 or 90% of it.
00:31:37:16 – 00:32:09:23
There is, of course, I would say, for them, challenge competition, whatever you want to call it, with, you know, Qatar and, and, and Turkey supporting that was the Brotherhood, which is, a large enemy of staunch enemy of, of, of Saudi Arabia and the UAE. And there’s something there, I think, concern about and worried, to see, Qatar and Turkey being so, upfront of this, deal.
00:32:09:23 – 00:32:50:09
But, obviously it got the it got the hostages out. And, you know, one needs to ask, okay, they have the ability, so maybe they could have done it sooner, but, I guess that’s just, me. So I think so. I think they’re definitely, wanting to to, to be part of it. A little bit concerned about the major role, Turkey and Qatar have, with, you know, creating this, this plan, but or being, the, I would say the chief, we say, so it’s just been like the chief, you know, the chief mischief makers.
00:32:50:15 – 00:33:24:22
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So I’ll stop there. Another question. I was just wondering. I, I missed it. It was on your presentation. But where do we stand currently with Sudan that were part of the, the original countries, but that seems to have gone gone off now. So, yes, we’re out west. Yeah. So unfortunately, shortly after we, announced, peace normalization with Sudan, it really went into this internal conflict between the two sides that are still unfortunately, unfortunately, going on.
00:33:24:22 – 00:33:49:01
This is part of what we’re dealing with in the Israel Africa relations is good. And, it’s a very complicated issue right now in Sudan and hopefully it’ll be resolved soon. It’s a terrible, terrible war with millions of, of displaced and, and hunger and famine and, many, many, many civilians, killed. It’s it’s very brutal.
00:33:49:03 – 00:34:17:20
And and so until the situation kind of, pulls back together and there’s stabilization and, and one unified, Sudan apart from South Sudan, obviously. We I mean, it’s kind of this, stalemate. And I think Israel has been not vocal about the conflict in Sudan because, it had good relations with a brand with, you know, the, Sudan Army.
00:34:17:21 – 00:34:41:24
And, and the UAE is in very close relation with, with the other side with the, resistant, Sudan forces. So, so it’s kind of this very, very tricky situation from the Israeli standpoint. And I think they decided not to decide, although I’m not sure. I mean, I’m not in the system for a while, so maybe they are like behind the thing, behind the scenes things.
00:34:41:24 – 00:35:04:11
But, I doubt it because it’s it’s really a tricky situation where you can like, get heat for any, any kind of, any kind of, of, stand you will take. And you saw it’s not even being spoken of, I think by Trump, the one of the resolutions, you know, one of the conflicts that the pertains to resolve.
00:35:04:17 – 00:35:36:11
So, yeah, this is where we stand right now. Thank you. And just drawing on your expertise in, Israel, Africa relations. I mean, we’re aware that both Iran and Qatar are trying to increase their influence in, in Africa, which is obviously a concern. But again, with your with your crystal ball, your, your kind of expert speculation, do you think there’s a chance of, other African countries that don’t at the moment have diplomatic ties with Israel of kind of being brought into the, the accords and, and a thaw of relations.
00:35:36:11 – 00:35:57:16
And which of those countries do you think are top of the list? Yeah. So I, I wouldn’t want to ruin anything, but, but yeah, I mean, there there are several, African countries that I think, can be next to the Abraham Accords. I think they’re again in the wait and see. See, I think everybody’s waiting for Saudi Arabia.
00:35:57:16 – 00:36:20:15
And will that be the first? And then after that, it’d be really, really like easier for many, many other countries. And there are a few in Africa. We we have relations in most countries in the, in Africa. I can tell you who I don’t think, we’re going to have, relations. That’s probably Algeria and Tunisia now.
00:36:20:17 – 00:36:48:11
Okay. I mean, you mentioned mentioned Saudi Arabia. Obviously that’s kind of the the big prize and and certainly from, from kind of lots of people’s analysis that, that that’s the kind of the crucial domino that will then trigger a whole range of other Arab and, and Muslim Muslim countries, to follow suit. I mean, partly we again, in the public discourse, we understand that Israel needs to give something on the Palestinian issue that reaches a threshold that the, the the Saudis can agree.
00:36:48:16 – 00:37:23:24
It’s that’s kind of the main blockage. What are the other kind of indicators that we should look for in the thawing and rapprochement with Saudi Arabia? Yeah. I mean, there is, I know Leon Pollack spoke to you here, and I’m sure she presented the, margin of, plan. And. Yeah, so basically there there was kind of this main thing that we, that the experts debated about, I think some, some resolution or some kind of advancement on the Palestinian issue is, is definitely, you know, very important.
00:37:23:24 – 00:38:01:14
I just can’t tell you what is this threshold to that? I think it keeps changing, too. Right. It has to do with the other circumstances. I think it’s very I think there will be very reluctant with the current government to go ahead and, and, and have, normalization, because of the far right here, you know, being very small screen being so opposed to the Palestinian state will be difficult for, Saudi Arabia to say we’re, you know, going on normalization with this particular, government.
00:38:01:14 – 00:38:31:11
So again, with the timing issue, it just depends how much push there is from from President Trump and the administration. And again, for them, the momentum is so, so, so important, even more important than, than anything else. So they that’s a big challenge. How do you, get, get alignment with the timing issues and the fact that you don’t want to create too much, friction.
00:38:31:11 – 00:38:48:01
And then the, I think the image of us being villains, which is specifically in, in, in, in in many ways, Netanyahu is a Jew is a big problem for, for kind of taking this very important step forward. Right. Thank you very much.