In this episode, Richard Pater speaks with Ambassador Amira Oron about Egypt’s role in the Middle East. Ambassador Oron outlines Egypt’s approach to Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and the Iranian issue. They also discuss Israel-Egypt relations and Turkey’s efforts to play a role in Gaza.
Ambassador Amira Oron served for three decades in Israel’s Foreign Ministry and dedicated her career to diplomatic activity in the Arab world. She was Israel’s Ambassador to Egypt from 2020 to 2024, having previously served in Cairo in the 1990s, later as Head of the Egypt Department at the Ministry. She was also the head of Israel’s diplomatic mission in Ankara.
Transcript
(This transcript has been automatically generated by AI — please excuse any potential errors.)
00:00:06:24 – 00:00:31:02
Richard Pater
Hello and welcome to the BICOM Podcast. I’m Richard Pater, the director of BICOM, and today is the 13th of May. Today’s episode returns our focus to Gaza, as well as the Egypt’s diplomatic role in trying to disarm Hamas and eventually rehabilitate the Gaza Strip. My guest today is Ambassador Amira Oron. Ambassador, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
00:00:31:03 – 00:00:32:03
Amira Oron
Happy to be here.
00:00:32:03 – 00:01:07:05
Richard Pater
So, for introduction, Ambassador Oron served for three decades in Israel’s Foreign service and focused primarily on diplomatic activity in the Arab world. She was Israel’s last serving ambassador in Egypt from 2020 to 2024, and before that, she served as the head of the Middle East Economic Department, where she promoted economic activity between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, Egypt and Jordan, and before that she was the head of Israel’s embassy in Ankara in Turkey, where also she contributed to the development of Israel.
00:01:07:05 – 00:01:24:09
Richard Pater
Turkey relations. So, Ambassador Oron, I think you are ideally placed before we get into some of the contemporary issues. Perhaps you can just tell us a little bit about your personal experience of serving as Israel’s ambassador in Cairo. What was that like overall?
00:01:24:11 – 00:01:47:02
Amira Oron
Thank you so much. Yes, it was a very exciting experience for me to be the door for four years and three months over there in Cairo. It is my second term in Cairo. I served there in the embassy during the 90s, in 95, 96, and after that I was the head of the department, the Egypt Department, here in the headquarters for six years.
00:01:47:02 – 00:02:11:02
Amira Oron
So, I had three times where I was totally exposed or working with Egypt. So, I managed to have a very complete, I can say, perspective on Egypt. This is one thing. The second thing is I actually coming back as an ambassador. As I said, it was fascinating because there I felt how we came and we really do that.
00:02:11:06 – 00:02:43:16
Amira Oron
Building the peace relations between Israel and Egypt, day by day, gram by gram, adding centimetres to this very important but yet complex relationship. So, it was really exciting. It was very positive. I have to say, for the first three years as an ambassador, between 2022 and 2023. And after that, of course, we all understand what happened and things have changed dramatically.
00:02:43:17 – 00:02:58:09
Richard Pater
Absolutely. I wonder if you could just pick maybe 1 or 2 kinds of significant events or interactions that you have that can kind of give us paint a picture for us of what it’s like to be Israel’s ambassador in Cairo.
00:02:58:11 – 00:03:32:18
Amira Oron
Of course, I can share two to positive events. During the peak years, the peak years of my service, and I think they were also peak years for our relationship with Egypt 2021 and 2022, during which I was honoured to host the Israeli big delegation that participated in the conference of the UN Convention on Climate Change. What is known as Cop27, which Egypt hosted in Sharm el-Sheikh at in November 2022.
00:03:32:19 – 00:04:09:24
Amira Oron
This delegation was headed by President Herzog, followed with 200 Israeli professionals and four ministers from government. It is a very exciting participation for us and also, we managed to build and a pavilion after 35 years that there was not any pavilion, Israeli pavilion in any conference in Egypt. We had also a very lovely pavilion where hundreds of guests in the conference visited and shared with us the Israeli, you know, know how technology.
00:04:10:00 – 00:04:39:03
Amira Oron
So, it was very amazing experience for all of us. And it was very, very positive because it was also very much welcomed by the Egyptians and by the other foreigners. Another, a very positive event that I had the honour to initiate and to host. I was, I was we were hosting as an embassy, of course, the wonderful Israeli orchestra known as in the name forget.
00:04:39:05 – 00:05:18:04
Amira Oron
Nor there is a Jewish Arab musician playing together as one orchestra, and they performed classical Arabic music. And they we managed to host them for the 74th anniversary for the State of Israel. We had a wonderful reception, and this was the musical part in that reception. And again, it was welcomed and was received so amazing, amazingly by our Egyptian guests, businessmen, diplomats, contact people and so on.
00:05:18:05 – 00:05:31:08
Amira Oron
So, I understood that we have so much to gain and so much to do. But again, you know, sometimes conditions are not or supporting what we have in mind.
00:05:31:09 – 00:05:46:17
Richard Pater
For sure. And I mentioned in the introduction that you’d also served in a senior position in Ankara as well. I just wondered if you could make a comparison between those experiences of being in Israeli diplomat in a in another Muslim capital.
00:05:46:19 – 00:06:18:10
Amira Oron
Yes, I think I am privileged because also to serve in Ankara was very fascinating. These two countries, Muslim countries, one is Arab, one is not a. There are more than just countries. These are civilizations. We have to understand it. And when you, you understand it, you understand that they are both people, the Egyptian people, the Turkish people are carrying the burden of history as we Israelis, Jewish people carrying our historical burden.
00:06:18:11 – 00:06:54:19
Amira Oron
So, and you have to understand that this is part of the current daily life of these people. And we have to you have to be aware to this perspective. So, I was very fascinated and I was thrilled to also work in Turkey is a very important country, a one we in the strategic. A player in this region, unfortunately, as we see our relations are diminishing by the day, it’s all in the hands of Erdogan.
00:06:54:19 – 00:07:34:20
Amira Oron
He decided that he is going through this kind of policy and conducting this policy against Israel. I think Egypt has the other aspect, as I was saying, because we are neighbouring countries, it gives more emphasis to the importance of these relations between Israel and Egypt. But again, Turkey is extremely important in the region for Israel. And although we are going through a very difficult times now because of the Turkish policy that again, Erdogan is conducting against Israel in order to get to gain assets in his political, domestic policy or needs.
00:07:34:22 – 00:07:38:21
Amira Oron
Still, we have to keep on conducting a kind of dialog with Turkey.
00:07:38:22 – 00:07:54:20
Richard Pater
Well, we’ll get on to Turkey a little bit later, but I wondered if we could just focus on the on the, the present day. And kind of you can share your analysis if we can start kind of it’s been out of the headlines, I suppose, in the last few weeks or a couple of months because of the Iranian issue.
00:07:54:20 – 00:08:20:04
Richard Pater
But if we return to Gaza, the recent assessments that I hear here in Israel suggest that not only have Hamas kind of retaken control, but they’re also able to rebuild their forces, even working to rebuild they’re their weapons stockpile. But in the in the background, slightly behind the scenes, there are diplomatic efforts going on which are being led by Egypt to disarm Hamas.
00:08:20:05 – 00:08:24:09
Richard Pater
What can you tell us about those talks that are going on in Cairo?
00:08:24:10 – 00:09:08:02
Amira Oron
Yes. The issue of this is extremely important for Israel, but we have to understand, or at least to try to address the Egyptian point of view on that subject. And the issue of Hamas disarmament should be viewed as a stage in the implementation of Trump’s 20-point plan. And this is the Egyptian perspective on that important matter. And the disarmament is included, is part of the second phase that Egypt is really pushing very hard, although the world is dealing with Iran, and what is happening in the Gulf is still pushing every day again and again in order to implement the second phase.
00:09:08:02 – 00:09:49:02
Amira Oron
And the disarmament of Hamas is part of this second phase, along with the gradual withdrawal of Egypt from the Gaza Strip and allowing the entrance of the stability Stabilization International force into the strip. So, this is a package. This is how Egypt looks at this issue. A they also believe, according to what I read, according to what I follow in the Egyptian media and the columnists and also the official statements that the issue of the disarmament is a political domestic issue of the Palestinians.
00:09:49:03 – 00:10:16:22
Amira Oron
I mean, they should address it themselves between the PA and Hamas in order to find a way to reduce the ability that Hamas, of course, is having now. And they also offer a kind of solution. But I don’t know if Israel will accept it. Instead of talking about disarmament, they offered to talk about the process of arms reduction.
00:10:16:22 – 00:10:44:18
Amira Oron
So, in order to bridge between the between Israel and Hamas and still in order to achieve some kind of progress. So, and the last thing I could say about the disarmament of Hamas, Egypt is not going to volunteer to be the party that receives the weapons surrendered by Hamas. So, all in all, again, Egypt is pushing in order to execute the second phase.
00:10:44:18 – 00:10:55:22
Amira Oron
And inside this second phase, they believe that we will be able to accomplish also some kind of success regarding the disarmament of Hamas.
00:10:56:00 – 00:11:18:19
Richard Pater
And we tend to view the CC government as kind of and in the, in the, in the framing of being anti-Muslim brotherhood within Egypt as translating to, to some animosity towards Hamas as well. Do you think that’s an accurate picture? How does how do the Egyptians look at Hamas and the prospect of them remaining in power in Gaza?
00:11:18:20 – 00:11:50:11
Amira Oron
This is absolutely true. I think we have to look at Egypt, relationships, a relationship with Hamas on two levels. First, there is exactly what you said the ideological religious level. Egypt opposes and rejects the movement’s existence because it’s a daughter organization of the Muslim brothers. And as we all recall, and we know Egypt under Sisi wage an all-out war against the Muslim brothers.
00:11:50:12 – 00:12:27:19
Amira Oron
They no longer exist as a operate as an organization in Egypt. And the idea of the Muslim brothers is totally a is standing entirely in contrast to the Egyptian point of view regarding the state. The state is the framework where all citizens combined and is secured by it. And there is not another kind of framework that distinguish others where you have the Muslims and the non-Muslims.
00:12:27:19 – 00:13:04:02
Amira Oron
This is not acceptable at all by the Egyptian regime, by El-Sisi. Therefore, they are they are totally opposing any kind of political Islam, whether it’s the Muslim brothers or the regime of the mullahs, Tullus told us in Iran and so on. So, this is from the ideological point of view. But on the practical level, Egypt is conducting for decades some kind of a dialog and contact with Hamas because they need to be practical.
00:13:04:03 – 00:13:34:10
Amira Oron
The reality is that they board Egypt boards with Gaza. There is a border between Hamas and the Egyptian regime. Therefore, they have to operate this mutual border, what is known as Philadelphia Corridor. And on that corridor, we there is another very important spot, which is the Rafah crossing, which is the only gate to Gaza and from Gaza to the world.
00:13:34:13 – 00:14:04:16
Amira Oron
So therefore, the Egyptian find it a necessity of reality to keep on conducting some kind of a dialog with Hamas, and also in order to bring about some kind of a solution to the whole Gaza Strip and in order to prevent any more escalation war that is really a affecting Egypt in a very negative way. So, this is why Egypt is having a dialog with Hamas.
00:14:04:16 – 00:14:18:12
Amira Oron
But they do prefer and they are doing their outpost in order to enable the return of the PA to Gaza Strip, where the PA in the future will control the strip.
00:14:18:15 – 00:14:43:03
Richard Pater
There was concern, Israeli concern over the past few years of a kind of duplicity that the Egyptians, whilst kind of maintaining diplomatic ties with Israel, also kind of turned a blind eye to the to the smuggling. And the tunnels under the Philadelphia corridor to those tunnels still exist. Is there still a risk of smuggling from the Sinai Peninsula into Gaza?
00:14:43:05 – 00:15:21:02
Amira Oron
This is a very important subject, definitely for Israel, but I think it’s also a very important one to Egypt because it says something about sovereignty and how you keep or guard your own borders. So, we have to really, as you are doing, to focus on that issue. First of all, I think this subject is, to my best of my understanding, is heavily laden with this information and according to what was stated also by the IDF, smuggling prior to October 7th was carried out through Rafah crossing, not underneath the border between Egypt and the strip.
00:15:21:05 – 00:15:46:07
Amira Oron
As we said, the Philadelphia corridor. This is one point that we have to understand and people are not aware of it. So, we have to emphasize this as far as I know and as far as is known also again, by the IDF, the smuggling took place within the framework of the commercial and humanitarian activity that was conducted in the Rafah crossing.
00:15:46:08 – 00:16:18:01
Amira Oron
It was abused by the smugglers. So, this is another thing to really to focus on, on the on the Rafah crossing. A yes, we can say unfortunately the whole issue was handled not very well, not well at all, even we can say with the kind of negligence and the goods that were entering the strip from Egypt were not inspected as it should have been.
00:16:18:02 – 00:16:59:02
Amira Oron
And things like this, I mean, the smuggling took place, as you said, even maybe with a kind of the Egyptians closed the eyes and, and it kept on going on. And there then we saw what they managed to, to have or to, to absorb there in the Gaza Strip, the kind of weapon that we saw, unfortunately, on October 7th, nowadays, even on October 7th, the tunnels that were found by the F very several of them were locked and blocked on the Egyptian side.
00:16:59:06 – 00:17:26:23
Amira Oron
This is one thing. Of course, they are not operative at all now. And another thing that we have to take into consideration is that goods that are now, as of October 7th onwards, that are entering from Egypt to the strip, being inspected by Israel in coordination with the Egyptians at the Israeli border crossings, which are Nitzan and Kerem Shalom.
00:17:27:00 – 00:17:59:16
Amira Oron
But again, unfortunately, the damage was already caused and now we are doing after damage activity. I hope we will in part of the whole, how would I say rehabilitation of Gaza Strip, implementing the Trump’s plan. Also, the issue of Rafah crossing will get its importance and technology and no harm and know-how and professionals we will handle this crossing.
00:17:59:18 – 00:18:13:00
Richard Pater
Thank you. And just more broadly, kind of how prominent is the Palestinian issue within Egyptian society or any kind of expat Palestinian community living in Egypt? How prominent is that?
00:18:13:01 – 00:18:43:08
Amira Oron
So, I wish you’d divide it. First of all, the Palestinian issue is very, very, very prominent from day one of our relationship between Israel and Egypt. From day one, I talk about Sadat’s appearance. Speech in the Knesset on November 20th, 1977. We all remember this historical visit on November 19th, and the day after he gave a speech in the Knesset, he said it there.
00:18:43:09 – 00:19:06:18
Amira Oron
I mean, we can follow we can open and see the and read the speech. And he was talking about the Palestinian state back then, saying that we should get to this point to agree to finish this unjust condition for the Palestinians and so on and so forth. So, it’s all it is always there. They always talk about it.
00:19:06:23 – 00:19:39:18
Amira Oron
We have to understand that Egyptians feel some kind of patronage on the Palestinian issue. They do believe that there should be a Palestinian state. They want a Palestinian state on its borders, not a Hamas state, a Palestinian state governed by a political force which is not religious. I mean, PA, for example, they put their hands on the pay as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.
00:19:39:20 – 00:20:05:04
Amira Oron
It is being known and received by most of the world. I mean, the majority of the of the countries in the world acknowledged it. So, this is how Egypt looks at it. And as long as the Palestinian issue is not being solved between the Israelis and Palestinians, it carries a burden and it damages our relationship with Egypt.
00:20:05:06 – 00:20:37:20
Amira Oron
So, this is one part of the answer to your question. The second part will be about the Palestinians, a presence in Egypt after October 7th. And there was because of the war that Israel conducted against Hamas. Many Palestinians left Gaza Strip and moved to Egypt. I can talk about more than 100,000 people that actually now live as a community in Egypt.
00:20:37:21 – 00:21:09:21
Amira Oron
There are guests. They were welcomed. An Egypt allows certain people, and other people did not allow them to come to Egypt. And we can understand who was allowed. Those who are not identified with the extremists, with the terrorists, and they live there mainly in Cairo. I heard about it when I was there as an ambassador and but actually the I guess they don’t have any, any status that of residents or anything else.
00:21:09:21 – 00:21:42:12
Amira Oron
So, I believe someday, somehow, they will have to go back to, to, to Gaza or to the West Bank. But now they are there. And other than that, Egypt will not allow Palestinians to leave Gaza Strip through its borders. Egypt totally opposes the enforced immigration that Israel from day one, from when? When we all remember when the war started, started to talk about it.
00:21:42:12 – 00:21:55:14
Amira Oron
Actually, there were papers, statements by senior people here in Israel regarding this enforced immigration. This is the way they look at it. And Egypt totally, totally, totally rejects it.
00:21:55:15 – 00:22:31:09
Richard Pater
Interesting. I just wanted to take a broader view. I mean, in the context of the last couple of months and the Israel US war with Iran, the way Israel kind of reads the maps, broadly speaking, is that it looks at the divides the region into kind of the different affiliations of the obviously the Shiite axis and the and an extremist Sunni axis of Hamas, but also the moderate pragmatic axis, which Israel sees itself as part with the Gulf states and Egypt and Jordan to the Egyptians, read the map the same way.
00:22:31:10 – 00:22:38:09
Richard Pater
How do they view the regional picture and specifically the confrontation with the with Iran?
00:22:38:10 – 00:23:21:22
Amira Oron
Yes, they do read it very, very I mean, the same according to your description. But we have to add another component. But let us start. Yes. They look at Iran as a threat, a constant threat to the Gulf countries. They condemned the Iranian activity that the fact that they were launching missiles against the Gulf states, which are sister countries to Egypt, there is very close relationship between Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Kuwait, Bahrain, the Gulf countries, and it totally opposes the Iranian activity.
00:23:22:01 – 00:24:07:23
Amira Oron
Also, each year of what Iran has been doing through the last few decades throughout the whole Sunni world, abusing the fact that there are some weak countries that are ethnically divided, and they actually deepened these divisions and made these countries to failed states. And we all can talk about Syria, about Lebanon, about Yemen, about there. And soon they and they know that Iran is engaged in this kind of activity that actually threatens the whole composition of this region and definitely the well-being of Sunni Arab countries.
00:24:08:03 – 00:24:35:11
Amira Oron
As Egypt looks at itself as the older sister, they have to give attention and to take care to the other sisters. And they therefore they totally reject this Iranian activity. And as I was saying in the beginning, they reject the idea that a state could be controlled or ruled or led by a priest, a man of religion.
00:24:35:13 – 00:25:22:15
Amira Oron
This is totally opposing the Egyptian, the Egyptian point of view. So, after saying all of this, I think Israel and Egypt, we can say that we share the same perspective here. We have to add another component. When Egypt looks at the region, I this is what I read from the columnists. It’s Eugene columnists. We don’t have official statements, but when you read the analysts and the columnists, they say they look at the region, and they do confess that the Arab world is now in its very weak situation because none are players are ruling and are guiding the whole activity and the whole performance in this region.
00:25:22:15 – 00:25:49:01
Amira Oron
And the non-Arabs are Israel, Iran and Turkey. And this is a big problem because as again, the Arabs look at it, this really region belongs to us. We are the Arabs; we are the majority. Islam and Arabic was born here in this region. And it cannot be that non-Arab players will have the word the upper hand. So, this is really a very difficult time.
00:25:49:01 – 00:26:24:11
Amira Oron
And they understand it. They confess that they are at their weakest point and therefore they have to invest efforts, a combined efforts of all the Arab countries in order to change this reality. So, Israel is part of this perspective, as I was trying to describe. And it’s not comfortable at all and it’s not helpful, I think, from the Arab point of view, for Israel to share any kind of activity or contacts with the Arab countries that I think are very essential for Israel.
00:26:24:13 – 00:26:39:18
Amira Oron
I mean, they see Israel as hegemon. They heard the statements that came from Israel, official statements, as if Israel is now conducting and ruling what is happening now in the region, and they don’t like it at all.
00:26:39:23 – 00:27:00:09
Richard Pater
So just as a follow up, how would you assess the current status of the of the bilateral relationship between Israel and Egypt in terms of the security cooperation in the Sinai, if that still is ongoing and any kind of shared economic interests as well.
00:27:00:11 – 00:27:47:16
Amira Oron
Generally speaking, the relations now are at a low point compared to the past and compared to what I have witnessed. And again, it was my luck to witness very good years where we, as I say, as I said, we managed to enlarge our scope of activity in economic sphere. So, we are in a very low point. There are no ambassadors in either in capital, not in not in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Israel, let’s say, and not in Cairo, unfortunately, although my successor was nominated, but he is not in Egypt and our economic activity is focused on the energy sphere, which is very blessed.
00:27:47:18 – 00:28:21:11
Amira Oron
We just recently, let’s say half a year ago, Israel and Egypt or companies from Israel and Egypt, also international companies, signed a treaty of an export of natural gas from Israel to Egypt. All in all, in the volume of $35 billion for 18 years, which is an amazing success. So, we have this. When it comes to trade, it really diminished.
00:28:21:13 – 00:28:50:02
Amira Oron
And that’s it. I mean, there is also another component of some kind of, of trade agreement that is still being operated between Israel and Egypt and the USA. We call it the quiz regarding textile. But we didn’t we cannot launch anything new. We don’t have anything, any kind of new initiative to start with. And it will not happen unless we will get some kind.
00:28:50:03 – 00:29:19:17
Amira Oron
There will be some kind of progress in in Gaza Strip, in the Palestinian issue, when it comes to the security, military intelligence cooperation, it’s still going on. And it is extremely important and extremely positive. And we really have to be we can be quite comfortable with it in the when it comes to the Sinai Peninsula. But all in all, there is a very good coordination.
00:29:19:17 – 00:29:47:23
Amira Oron
I can tell you that from what I read and from what I understand, both countries are also upholding their fundamental strategic commitment to the peace treaty, which is another very fundamental layer of our relationship. But we must do more and we must cultivate our relations for the future. I hope we will see some kind of progress. As I was saying, in Gaza, in the West Bank.
00:29:47:24 – 00:29:54:04
Amira Oron
Also, what is happening now in the West Bank is not helpful at all. I’m trying to be optimistic.
00:29:54:06 – 00:30:26:21
Richard Pater
Yes, yes, we’ll try and keep some optimism. I think it’s the only way to look at things here. Just one final area. Just a drawing on your experience from Ankara as well. What’s your what’s your current assessment of the Israel Turkish ties. And I suppose also as it relates to Gaza, Turkey, one of the only countries that have volunteered to send forces into the international stabilization force, but Israel appears to be boycotting that or kind of heavily rejecting Turkey involvement.
00:30:26:21 – 00:30:32:18
Richard Pater
How do you see that relationship panning out at the moment between the two countries?
00:30:32:21 – 00:31:14:21
Amira Oron
Yes, our relationship with Turkey is also in a very, very low point. And again, as I was saying previously, this is only the I mean, the, the way our, the one wants to conduct this kind of policy towards Israel, I think what are the one is doing, as I was saying again, is, is making statements or taking operational decisions in order to achieve what he believes he might achieve some kind of assets in the domestic political arena inside Turkey.
00:31:14:23 – 00:31:52:07
Amira Oron
Actually, what we see is a prolonged process of indoctrination, which is taking place in Turkey by conducted by Erdogan, cultivating negative attitudes towards Israel and support of the Palestinians, especially the support of Hamas. And here I think we come to a point it is important to pay attention, because in the eyes of Erdogan and his government, Hamas is a legitimate Muslim Brotherhood organization, a partner to the Turkish current regime, which also promotes this kind of ideology.
00:31:52:08 – 00:32:25:21
Amira Oron
We also know that Erdogan Turkey hosts a Muslim Brothers and Hamas terrorist activists in, in, in in Istanbul. So, this is how it goes. And this is why, according to your question, Erdogan and Turkey insist on playing a significant role in Gaza Strip in every mean possible. I mean, delivering humanitarian aid to Gaza, to the strip, rebuilding the strip and participating in the international stabilization for a force.
00:32:25:21 – 00:32:52:01
Amira Oron
And as you said, they were the first to volunteer to, to have their presence inside the Gaza Strip. I think I believe that both Israel and Egypt, although Egypt is not saying it out loud, a don’t have any interest in this kind of Turkish involvement in Gaza Strip, and I hope we will be able to prevent it.
00:32:52:06 – 00:32:59:13
Richard Pater
Absolutely. Okay. Listen, ambassador, thank you very much indeed for your time today. Fascinating listening to you. Most appreciated.
00:32:59:14 – 00:33:01:08
Amira Oron
Anytime. Thank you so much.